Warden filter.
May. 15th, 2011 04:49 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
buywithmeI'd like to make a formal argument against demoting Edward Nygma, because I think that many of the people voting for it are doing so impulsively and emotionally without considering the connotations of what they're trying to do.
I have broken my reasoning into three easily digestible sections:
1) Crime
What happened here was the steep escalation from what sounds like fairly childish pranks, into torture and retaliation. First of all, those of you comparing this to the kind of back and forth murder that the inmates participate in are being disproportionate. I do not think it was at all acceptable for Edward Nygma to steal from Arthas. However, under no circumstances is it the kind of thing that we would be discussing his demotion over, and it seems extremely unlikely that at this point Nygma foresaw it escalating to the level which it did. For this reason, I believe it should be considered context for what happened, rather than an indication of a larger problem.
The crime we should be considering here is that after being tortured, instead of being responsible and telling Arthas's warden what he had done, Edward Nygma hid what had happened and retaliated in kind.
What he did was very extreme, and frightening. However, what was done to him was also likely frightening and painful. I don't think any of us are at liberty to assume what his mindset has been throughout this.
2) Consistancy
The closest related event to this one which we've had to decide upon in recent memory, was when Tim attacked the Joker while he was in Level Zero, after killing Shego.
Examining these two crimes side by side:
Offense 1: The Joker got into a fight with Shego at the end of which she died and was restored to life in the infirmary.
Offense 2: Arthas tortured Edward Nygma for two days, at the end of which time he died and recovered alone.
Reaction 1: Tim went down to Level Zero, where the Joker was being punished for his crime, and savagely beat him.
Reaction 2: Edward waited for an opportunity to take revenge, and injected fear serum into Arthas's brain.
Response 1: Almost unanimously, we asked Tim to go on a probationary period, and spend some time in Level Zero
Response 2: The majority of people appear to be asking for demotion.
Problems: Why is it acceptable for someone who is physically capable to savagely beat someone who can't defend themselves, but not acceptable for someone who is not physically capable to attack someone through different means?
If Edward had been in a position to beat Arthas up, then would we have had no problem with that, and why?
Why is the difference in the punishments so great? I appreciate that the offense and reaction were both more serious in this case, but how can we let off one person with a slap on the wrist, and another person with immediate demotion?
Theoretical solutions: We operate under the impression that Tim running and beating up the Joker was somehow more noble than this, because he did it immediately. The belief that it is somehow more acceptable to torture someone in a fit of anger than to plan it out in advance, seems to permeate, as if anger somehow removes responsibility for what we do, any more than prolonged pain or trauma does.
There is also the idea, in my opinion, that people see what Tim did in a romantic view. That attacking someone who hurt your girlfriend is more noble than attacking someone who hurt yourself. So they forgive it more easily.
Finally, Edward Nygma is quite annoying. Tim is not very annoying at all.
3) Consequences
I believe if we are to make a decision which will significantly impact upon someone's life here, then we have a responsibility to interrogate the outcomes which the decision we make will have an the reasons why we are making it. This section of the post is devoted to these problems.
Solution 1: Demotion - This would make Edward Nygma an inmate. He would be assigned to a warden, and kept here until his graduation, or until he vanished into thin air. He would likely never fulfill the deal he made before coming here, and could spend many years as an inmate.
Function: When someone is an inmate... it is either because they are a dangerous person, who has hurt many people and would go on to hurt many more people without intervention, or because they have, over the course of their lives, been plagued by so many bad decisions and bad fortune that they need to be able to start over. The function of the Barge is not to punish us, it is to give those of us who need it a second chance.
Solution 2: Probation - For a specified period of time, Edward Nygma would be relieved of his weapons, responsibilities, and warden privileges. He would essentially be an inmate, but for the fact that the penalty would not be indefinite.
Function: If a warden is not fit to perform his or her duties, and/or not responsible enough to be trusted with the freedoms that being a warden brings, then probation prevents them from exploiting their power. It also acts as a punishment, because it is the potentially long term removal of privileges, putting them on a level playing field with the inmates, without actually forcing them into a program of rehabilitation.
Solution 3: Time In Zero - He would be locked up in level zero. Presumably for seven days.
Function: Punishment. Time in zero.
Maybe what Edward Nygma did was worse than the crimes of some inmates, but the difference is that as far as we know, what he did was not representative of the choices which he's made in his life. It was a terrible reaction to a terrible thing which happened to him. However, unless there is reason to believe that he would pursue his feude against Arthas further once the cycle of violence between them has been broken, I don't believe his problem is endemic enough to justify demotion.
I explained my opinions in Bruce Wayne's post, but I will repeat them here. I believe that he should be put on probation, possibly for a number of months, without weapons, control over any inmates, or warden privileges. During this time, I think that he and Arthas should be kept under some kind of monitoring to prevent this from continuing and if possible, one, or both of them should undergo some kind of psychological treatment.
Because, Comrades, that is the rational response. It correlates with our past judgments on people, and it might actually repair the damage that's been done here, as opposed to just causing more.
[There's a slight, awkward pause.]
That's all I had to say.
I have broken my reasoning into three easily digestible sections:
1) Crime
What happened here was the steep escalation from what sounds like fairly childish pranks, into torture and retaliation. First of all, those of you comparing this to the kind of back and forth murder that the inmates participate in are being disproportionate. I do not think it was at all acceptable for Edward Nygma to steal from Arthas. However, under no circumstances is it the kind of thing that we would be discussing his demotion over, and it seems extremely unlikely that at this point Nygma foresaw it escalating to the level which it did. For this reason, I believe it should be considered context for what happened, rather than an indication of a larger problem.
The crime we should be considering here is that after being tortured, instead of being responsible and telling Arthas's warden what he had done, Edward Nygma hid what had happened and retaliated in kind.
What he did was very extreme, and frightening. However, what was done to him was also likely frightening and painful. I don't think any of us are at liberty to assume what his mindset has been throughout this.
2) Consistancy
The closest related event to this one which we've had to decide upon in recent memory, was when Tim attacked the Joker while he was in Level Zero, after killing Shego.
Examining these two crimes side by side:
Offense 1: The Joker got into a fight with Shego at the end of which she died and was restored to life in the infirmary.
Offense 2: Arthas tortured Edward Nygma for two days, at the end of which time he died and recovered alone.
Reaction 1: Tim went down to Level Zero, where the Joker was being punished for his crime, and savagely beat him.
Reaction 2: Edward waited for an opportunity to take revenge, and injected fear serum into Arthas's brain.
Response 1: Almost unanimously, we asked Tim to go on a probationary period, and spend some time in Level Zero
Response 2: The majority of people appear to be asking for demotion.
Problems: Why is it acceptable for someone who is physically capable to savagely beat someone who can't defend themselves, but not acceptable for someone who is not physically capable to attack someone through different means?
If Edward had been in a position to beat Arthas up, then would we have had no problem with that, and why?
Why is the difference in the punishments so great? I appreciate that the offense and reaction were both more serious in this case, but how can we let off one person with a slap on the wrist, and another person with immediate demotion?
Theoretical solutions: We operate under the impression that Tim running and beating up the Joker was somehow more noble than this, because he did it immediately. The belief that it is somehow more acceptable to torture someone in a fit of anger than to plan it out in advance, seems to permeate, as if anger somehow removes responsibility for what we do, any more than prolonged pain or trauma does.
There is also the idea, in my opinion, that people see what Tim did in a romantic view. That attacking someone who hurt your girlfriend is more noble than attacking someone who hurt yourself. So they forgive it more easily.
Finally, Edward Nygma is quite annoying. Tim is not very annoying at all.
3) Consequences
I believe if we are to make a decision which will significantly impact upon someone's life here, then we have a responsibility to interrogate the outcomes which the decision we make will have an the reasons why we are making it. This section of the post is devoted to these problems.
Solution 1: Demotion - This would make Edward Nygma an inmate. He would be assigned to a warden, and kept here until his graduation, or until he vanished into thin air. He would likely never fulfill the deal he made before coming here, and could spend many years as an inmate.
Function: When someone is an inmate... it is either because they are a dangerous person, who has hurt many people and would go on to hurt many more people without intervention, or because they have, over the course of their lives, been plagued by so many bad decisions and bad fortune that they need to be able to start over. The function of the Barge is not to punish us, it is to give those of us who need it a second chance.
Solution 2: Probation - For a specified period of time, Edward Nygma would be relieved of his weapons, responsibilities, and warden privileges. He would essentially be an inmate, but for the fact that the penalty would not be indefinite.
Function: If a warden is not fit to perform his or her duties, and/or not responsible enough to be trusted with the freedoms that being a warden brings, then probation prevents them from exploiting their power. It also acts as a punishment, because it is the potentially long term removal of privileges, putting them on a level playing field with the inmates, without actually forcing them into a program of rehabilitation.
Solution 3: Time In Zero - He would be locked up in level zero. Presumably for seven days.
Function: Punishment. Time in zero.
Maybe what Edward Nygma did was worse than the crimes of some inmates, but the difference is that as far as we know, what he did was not representative of the choices which he's made in his life. It was a terrible reaction to a terrible thing which happened to him. However, unless there is reason to believe that he would pursue his feude against Arthas further once the cycle of violence between them has been broken, I don't believe his problem is endemic enough to justify demotion.
I explained my opinions in Bruce Wayne's post, but I will repeat them here. I believe that he should be put on probation, possibly for a number of months, without weapons, control over any inmates, or warden privileges. During this time, I think that he and Arthas should be kept under some kind of monitoring to prevent this from continuing and if possible, one, or both of them should undergo some kind of psychological treatment.
Because, Comrades, that is the rational response. It correlates with our past judgments on people, and it might actually repair the damage that's been done here, as opposed to just causing more.
[There's a slight, awkward pause.]
That's all I had to say.
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Filter
Date: 2011-05-15 04:01 pm (UTC)Filter
Date: 2011-05-15 04:06 pm (UTC)Warden Filter
Date: 2011-05-15 04:09 pm (UTC)Unlike you, I'll be concise. Another difference is that this was an ongoing feud. Nygma'd already stolen Arthas' stuff, and he had to know he was playing with fire. And there was the part where Wayne had stepped in to end the bloody conflict. Maybe Arthas would have gone back on his word, maybe not, but Nygma just stepped in and tortured him anyway. It's a bit past a slip-up.
I've got no problem with it being a temporary demotion, but if he's really reformed, I'd think it'd be a short sentence anyway. Shouldn't have far to go, right?
Re: Warden Filter
Date: 2011-05-15 04:22 pm (UTC)I address the issue of it being an ongoing feud in my initial point. I don't think that anyone would have anticipated things getting to this point, because if Edward Nygma knew he was going to get tortured in retribution for stealing things, then why would he steal them?
Re: Wayne stepping in to stop things.
Isn't that equivalent to Joker already being punished when Tim went to beat him up?
I'm not arguing that it's a minimal crime by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just being rational. What happened here was a serious abuse of power born out of a lack of responsibility and extreme trauma, unless there's an indication that it's likely to happen again, it doesn't make sense to have him demoted.
Warden Filter
From:Private;
Date: 2011-05-16 04:39 pm (UTC)Your empathy is astounding.He hung me over an elevator, while I was a child. Perhaps the incident wouldn't harm you the way it harmed me, but that in itself produced enough upset for me to chance playing a small prank on him. No, I didn't realize he would torture me over it; do you really think I would have subjected myself to that with the knowledge it would escalate?
And no, I didn't know of Arthas' promise. I knew he kept back talking Wayne, assuring me that he wouldn't attack he unless he-- I don't know-- stumbled into my presence by accident? At least, that's how I perceived it.
Private;
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Date: 2011-05-15 04:22 pm (UTC)In response to 1; torture whilst in a position of power, no matter under what duress is, in my view, a very serious crime. I, and many others have held back from hurting people who've tortured us.
As for 2) In my view, the difference is not romantic, but a practical point of law; his actions were premeditated. Tim acted in the heat of the moment. In my law, that's the difference between murder and culpable homocide
no subject
Date: 2011-05-15 04:46 pm (UTC)And for 2) I'm afraid I don't agree with you, Comrade. Tim was thinking straight enough to seek the Joker out down in zero in order to attack him. I don't see how it's justifiable to defend that being in the heat of the moment, but not to defend this being under the ongoing trauma of a previous moment.
But even both of those things aside, I still don't think that just because this is a serious crime, he should be demoted to inmate. I think he should lose his responsibilities, and be monitored for some time if possible, but I don't think he should be made an inmate.
(no subject)
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Date: 2011-05-15 04:34 pm (UTC)I hope more people pay attention to the distinction between inmate status as a second chance rather than a punishment. If he's unfit to be a warden, then he shouldn't be one-- in which case, I think the Admiral would just remove him from the Barge.
The world isn't limited to just "warden" and "inmate."
no subject
Date: 2011-05-15 04:47 pm (UTC)Private;
Date: 2011-05-15 05:06 pm (UTC)[Awkward clearing of the throat.]
Thank you.
Private;
Date: 2011-05-15 05:22 pm (UTC)[Staying quiet, because you tortured someone he likes :c]
no subject
Date: 2011-05-15 05:10 pm (UTC)Let me repeat this: He injected shit into someone's brain. That's fucking creepy torture.
If it was anyone other than Arthas that he'd done this too, it wouldn't even be a fucking discussion.
no subject
Date: 2011-05-15 05:22 pm (UTC)And for your information I like Arthas! I liked Arthas back when he was still trying to kill people, when everyone else was still calling him a monster, before and after he strangled me, and before and after he killed me and took out my soul and put a voice in my head, so don't you dare project your childish, short sighted biases onto me!
[His voice rises more and more as he gets towards the end of that, because FUCK YOU PARKER, he is really pretty upset about what Eddie did. He just happens to take being fair, and rational and professional incredibly seriously.]
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From:private; the count is over now, so he's just clearing things up
Date: 2011-05-16 04:26 pm (UTC)And Arthas is a unique individual. I doubt anyone else would have done or said the things he did; my retaliation stems from more than just the torture, though that is the predominator of it all. There are things he did after that time that haven't been publicized, for reasons of a fair trial.
You're welcome to ask me for details. Or yell profanities, which I suspect you want to do.
Filter - I hate talking about my own characters, but this seemed necessary.
Date: 2011-05-15 05:30 pm (UTC)Did Monsieur Nygma receive any treatment after he was tortured and killed? Did anyone insist that he seek counsel? Did anyone offer him any? Did he take any? There were measures that could have been taken, here.
Sort his Inmate with an Interim Warden and get him what he needs.
And before someone here tells me that killing and a severe beating are different. I am aware. Torture and the death of someone you were fucking are also very different.
I might also remind people that it was one Captain Adams who after a torturous experience with an Inmate emptied both pistols into said Inmate, while they were incarcerated in zero, and no one disagreed for an instant that she was not in her right mind. The time between matters none.
Anyone who has been tortured understands there is a desperate feeling of powerlessness and an equally desperate need to take that power back by any means necessary. If I'm not going mad I seem to also remember that she certainly hadn't passed those even after the event, considering her rather public display of disapproval on that Inmate's return to the barge, what? A year later? I don't doubt that she might have killed that Inmate again if provoked.
filter;
Date: 2011-05-15 06:26 pm (UTC)This is text because he would never be able to verbalize any of this, and he's only talking about it now because it seems to be a major debating point. ]
I don't disagree with giving him what he needs, but I have to disagree that just because there has been a precedent it makes it right.
I have experience of being tortured, and I agree that there has always been the urge to retaliate, to kill. But just because the urge is there doesn't mean it should be carried through. Nygma's actions don't solve anything; they perpetuate a cycle of hatred, harm, torture and death.
If he isn't at least punished in some ways for taking the way he did, then it would set an example for the inmates that revenge is a viable option when attacked. One inmate - Rinzler - offered a 'tit for tat' strategy, and it was rejected simply because it doesn't solve anything. It isn't the right choice.
I abstained from voting whether to put him on probation or to demote him, and I still abstain now. But being tortured does not mean that one is allowed to do anything in retaliation.
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Date: 2011-05-15 07:01 pm (UTC)And yes, there's a desperate need to take power back. I understand that. But killing or responding with torture are not the ways to do it - no matter what you want to do. If we let this go, where do I stand, having punished my inmate for having done the same on my behalf? After having seen the effect someone else's actions had on me. The immediacy the act, by the way, is important for how premeditated the action was - how well thought through, and how long he'd planned on doing it.
This was premeditated over a reasonable period of time. He had time to ask people for help - or take what had been offered for him. By the sounds of things, he did seek help from Mr Wayne, but still ended up torturing someone.
It is not excusable in a prison to torture people. It is not small, and not something we can't act on in severe terms. We are in a position of power, and to torture anyone is to abuse that power beyond measure.
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From:Private;
Date: 2011-05-15 05:31 pm (UTC)The most important thing to me is whether he knew that Arthas promised Bruce Wayne that he'd leave Nygma alone if Nygma left him alone, because if he knew that he'd have known he could make the whole thing stop. Although, with your probation idea, I see where that would work, and maybe if this stuff keeps happening despite it, then make Nygma an inmate.
Although I think no matter what, they both need psychological treatment.
Re: Private;
Date: 2011-05-15 07:22 pm (UTC)I don't know, Comrade. From my own experience, there were very few inmates who I felt deserved what they got on the barge. I don't think that this is enough to deserve that. I think probation and psychological care would do the most to repair this.
Re: Private;
From:[Filter]
Date: 2011-05-15 10:21 pm (UTC)And if there ever were a board of judges, which I doubt there ever will be because Cosmos forbid the wardens ever establish some order and consistency here, I would nominate you to be on it.Re: [Filter] - sorry for spam. saving myself a post. :D
Date: 2011-05-15 10:33 pm (UTC)[Private]
When you're... a little better, can we talk? Professionally.
[Filter] - sorry for spam. saving myself a post. :D
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Date: 2011-05-15 11:01 pm (UTC)Do we not have something we can... remove as punishment? I don't like this demotion idea; people shouldn't get to decide who gets to be... reb [oops, sorry] demoted like that. It ends in well meaning people ending up there. You start with one thing, you keep going with smaller and smaller things.
Like demeriting or something?Re: private
Date: 2011-05-15 11:38 pm (UTC)Then if they ignored me, I make a post complaining about them.
I'm not sure. I mean, probation wouldn't mean he was demoted, it would mean that he didn't have warden privileges for a period of time. He would still technically be a warden though?
[Pause]
What is demeriting?
Re: private
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Date: 2011-05-15 11:13 pm (UTC)I don't think he should be demoted. [Mostly because he isn't sure Riddler could come back from that. Sorry Bruce. :\]
And I' appreciate it if next time you use less detail.[Nope, never mind. Sigh.]Private
Date: 2011-05-15 11:27 pm (UTC)Private
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Date: 2011-05-16 01:16 am (UTC)Private
Date: 2011-05-16 01:35 am (UTC)Private
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Date: 2011-05-16 01:41 am (UTC)